This page contains a number of UUCF list postings related to problems at UUCF and the relationship of the chat list to them. Several people left the list, and there were several suggestions that the list be terminated. In the course of this, Michael D. Berger was excommunicated from the list, and in consequence, Rosalie A. Clavez was also excommunicated. (For those who don't know us, Mike and Rosalie were married at UUCF.) They were not notified of the excommunication, but rapidly found out. The reason given was that Mike is not a member of UUCF, and his name appeared (alone) in the "From" line of the e-mail. To make a long story short, Rosalie was ultimately reinstated on the list with the same joint e-mail address, with two conditions:
These conditions have been met. The UUCF section of our web site is now maintained by Mike alone, as indicated in the introduction to the page. If UUCF wants to know whether or not there is any collaboration, they might consider a bug in our bedroom.
I note as of this writing, after June 26, 1999, there has been very little activity on the UUCF Chat list.
From: Nancy Sherwood
To: [UUCF Chat]
Subject: 2 cents worth from a new member
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 21:13:15 PDT
I am new to this list as well as to attending any kind of church, so I feel like I am walking into the middle of a conversation with a group of strangers. Please bear with me
I started to attend UUCF last August just after my husband of 26 years and I, separated. I came looking for sanctuary and community and a place where my children and I could feel like we are a part of something. Like we belong. I have not been disappointed, but I have a long way to go before I feel like we are really a part of the UUCF community.
I would like to be more involved in the church, but because my life has been in so much turmoil (returning to the work place for the first time since 1975, mothering 5 kids etc.)I can honestly say that I have not been able to.
I appreciate the church wanting us all to be activists in the church as well as the greater community. I know that the time will come when I will be able to do more like so many of you. Right now I feel that getting myself and kids to church every Sunday is my share of ministering.
I do not know or understand a lot of the politics and history of UUCF that have been mentioned on this chat list, but I am sure that will come in time.
There has been some concern about the lack of participation and decline in membership. Maybe it is the already large size of the congregation that makes it hard?
When I first started to come I signed up for the orientation classes about becoming a UUCF. I come to new comers' pot luck dinners. My family and I were at the Spring Retreat. My 18 year old has been very involved in the Senior High Seminar and Affirmations.
However, we discovered all of these things on our own. Nobody called from the church to welcome us personally to the "neighborhood". Perhaps more people would join or stay if they felt a more personal feeling, something like a sponsorship. I have often tried to introduce myself after Sunday services only to find that the "old timers" are engaged in their conversations and not particularly interested in getting to know someone new. It is not easy to start conversations with strangers. It is even harder when the people you are trying to meet are looking over your head to see their "real" friends. I know it will take time, but I hope that in years to come I do not lose the feelings I have right now of how it is to be new so I can be a friend to someone else who is new.
I get a lot of mail from UUCF, but it would be so meaningful to many new-comers to have some personal contact I am sure.
I will see you all next Sunday. I will be helping with RE and then donating blood. Please be sure to say "hi" to me and introduce yourselves.
Nancy Sherwood
Subject: Re: 2 cents worth from a new member
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 21:50:51 PDT
From: Nancy Sherwood
To: [UUCF Chat]
Lest I sound like a whiner, I have already received a welsome letter from one of the members of this list. here was my reply to her
Thank you for your fast reply. Don't get me wrong, I do talk to people, but I often feel like an outsider. And I am a very strong extrovert, so I imagine for a shy person it would be very difficult. I have ushered a few times and helped out in my children's RE classes too.
I have gone from being a full time house wife and mother to working full time. I leave the house at 7AM and get home at 6PM. I would like to attend some of the workshops, but need to spend as much of my "free time" with mu children. We are all having a very rough time transitioning from being a "stable" two parent home to a working mom, one parents home. In time.
I am meeting people and getting to know names and faces. It is just so hard sometimes you know.
Nancy
Subject: another 2 cents worth
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 11:45:10 PDT
From: Nancy Sherwood
To: [UUCF Chat]
It is I, Nancy the newcomer piping up again. Looking in from the ouside, as I feel I am still working my way in slowly. Try to imagine that you have just joined this list (as I have). Now try to imagine what I have seen in my first week on this list.
Wow! I will in time learn what all the issues are I suppose. But for now it looks like maybe some of the members of this list need to pick a designated time and place and once and for all see who can piss the farthest. I will be happy to be one of the judges.
Now I remember why I got out of local politics after I was in for 18 months.
Regards, Nancy Sherwood
Subject: chat-list
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 22:05:14 -0400
From: Su & Jim Davis
To: "Alison Eskildsen"
CC: [UUCF Chat, Jim Nelson, Bill Welch]
We propose to the Board of Trustees and to whomever else one needs to petition, that the uucf-chat e-mail list be abolished. It is so distressing to us, as well as to many others of the members of our congregation, to have this medium be the first (and sometimes primary) impression that new people receive about us as a community. Witness one new person who has just joined us recently, and her impression of what she found on the chat list. There are better ways to communicate with one another. It seems to us that this particular method of faceless communication has gone from bad to worse, and no longer functions as a community builder. We will miss some of the valuable sharing we have experienced; but presently we find ourselves bombarded with what we perceive as mean-spirited and self-centered proclamations which are destructive to the preservation of the loving community that UUCF represents to our family. For the sake of the whole community, we hope the e-mail chat-list can be eliminated, but regardless of your decision, we are eliminating ourselves from it, as several other members have already done.
Subject: Remove
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 22:09:57 -0400
From: Su & Jim Davis
To: Kurt/Carol Jensen
CC: [UUCF Chat]
Kurt,
Please remove us from the chat-list. We have had all we can stand.
Keep the faith -
Jim and Su Davis
Subject: I am sorry
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 20:12:47 PDT
From: Nancy Sherwood
To: [UUCF Chat]
CC: [Su & Jim Davis]
I am sorry if I stuck my nose in where it did not belong and made comments that may have lead anyone to leave this list. That was never my intention.
I very much want to "belong" to the UUCF community and to feel a part of it. I believe that healthy and respectful disagreements and dissent are essential to keeping our religious community alive and healthy and out spiritual growth strong. Without knowing the history of the discussions going on here in this e-mail list, what I felt I was witness to was more on the lines or character bashing and name calling. Words like "put up or shut up" and "put your money where your mouth is" are neither constructive nor nice and in fact are the things that I have to remind my children are NOT acceptable words to use.
I would love to know what the issues are. I know that there are people in the congregation who are unhappy with the "way things are going". I would love to learn what those things are and where they are going and how we can come up with some constructive ways to meet those goals.
I would also like to see my new friends and acquaintances learn to respectfully agree to disagree from time to time without slinging insults and accusations along the way. Like stray bullets, you never know who those words will hit or how they will hurt. And like bullets, once fired you cannot take them back.
Regards, Nancy Sherwood
Subject: Remove
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 07:07:38 -0400 (EDT)
From: The Taddeo Family
To: [UUCF Chat]
Kurt,
Please remove the Taddeo's from the chat list. We would like to stay on the INFO list because this has proved to be a very effective communication tool for disseminating information to the community. The chat list seems to be more negative than positive; perhaps we can come up with a better system for electronically sharing our spiritual journeys and creative ideas for meeting our mission.
Until then, see you in church, where we can chat face-to-face, with respect and care.
Jan & Russ
The moment we cease to hold each other, the moment we break faith with one another, the sea engulfs us and the light goes out. -James Baldwin
Subject: A comment on list removals
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 07:29:03 EDT
From: [Tony DeCamp]
To: [UUCF Chat, UUCF Info]
I am very concerned when our members choose to unsubscribe from one of our lists. In the spirit of valuing the worth and dignity of all people, this seems to have a flavor of "I don't want to hear what you have say."
To be sure, there has been a lot of rough-and-tumble discussion on the chat list. There have been a few instances of postings that are inelegantly worded, or even posted in error. However, this is what goes on when we have free speech. There have even been fights on the floors of Congress! Surely, when something that appears to be injudicious is said by one of our friends, we can be forgiving. It's not necessary to say, in effect, "I don't want to hear anything you have to say."
Let's remember that the reason for two lists was to have one for general church news, and one for open discussion. It's not constructive to have the news list cluttered up with debate, but that's exactly what may happen if we don't have a chat list.
We are -- intentionally -- a diverse community. This means that, once in a while, somebody will surely say something that I disagree with. I, for one, would much rather deal with that problem than to cut myself off from all such discussion. Remember, we all have things to learn; maybe some of these are from statements that we disagree with.
In peace and love,
Tony DeCamp
p.s. My apologies for the double posting. I hope that those who have removed themselves from the chat list and get this through the infor list will reconsider.
Subject: Re: I am sorry
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 10:14:18 -0400
From: [Mark Waser]
To: Nancy Sherwood
CC: [UUCF Chat, Jim and Su Davis]
Nancy >> I am sorry if I stuck
my nose in where it did not belong and made
comments
Nancy>> that may have lead anyone
to leave this list. That was never my
intention.
Nancy, I don't believe that anyone feels that you stuck your nose in where it did not belong or that it was your comments which lead people to leave the list. This has been escalating for some time and it was only an unfortunate coincidence of timing that this occurred as you were joining. I think/hope/believe that most of us laughed at your delightfully apt comparison and if your comments caused anyone to leave the list, it is only because your wit, wisdom, and warmth led them to see that they were participating in something that they didn't believe in.
Jim & Su>> We propose to the Board of Trustees and to whomever
else one needs to
Jim & Su>> petition, that the uucf-chat e-mail list be abolished.
While this isn't the correct forum for the official petition, I strongly agree and am willing to help support any action to shut the chat list down. This is a real shame since such a list could be a powerful force/tool for our congregation, but it isn't turning out that way at all. I am very torn about my own participation in this list for a number of reasons. I am not here out of joy but because of fear. I think that all of our lives would be better (and more joyful) if the list were ended.
Tony>> In the spirit of valuing the worth
and dignity of all people, this
Tony>> seems to have a flavor of "I don't
want to hear what you have say."
I don't think that this is true. I think that we have all heard (and even, listened to) each other. I think we've reached the point where we understand each other's point of view and agreed to disagree.
What we seem to be doing now is endlessly reinforcing the same monolithic positions with a myriad of minor new details. And we're doing it over the bodies of too many feelings and sensitivities. There is a time to quit and I think we're long past it.
There's no conflict between "I want to know what you think" and "I don't want to have the same thing hammered into me over and over and over again". This list is tearing us apart instead of bringing us together. To bring in a piece of the wonderful thread on forgiveness, I forgive all of us for doing this but let's keep it from happening again (and again). Let's kill the list for a while.
Subject: Re: I am sorry
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 11:20:51 -0400
From: "Kit Christopher J. Lueder"
CC: [UUCF Chat]
Nancy Sherwood wrote:
> I am sorry if I stuck my nose in
where it did not belong and made comments
> that may have lead anyone to leave this
list. That was never my intention.
I didn't take your comments that way.
> I would love to know what the issues are. I
know that there are people in
> the congregation who are unhappy with the
"way things are going". I would
> love to learn what those things are and where
they are going and how we can
> come up with some constructive ways to meet those goals.
I think the core issue is that some people despise Jim Nelson, and they will keep posting negative comments till he is gone (which hopefully won't be for a long time).
Love,
Kit.
Subject: Reviewing the Issues
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 17:54:57 -0700
From: "Michael D. Berger"
To: [UUCF Chat]
CC: Nancy Sherwood
There have been some recent changes and additions to our personal web site, which is presently at:
[http://www.rosemike.net/]
Anyone interested in historic material regarding some of the controversies at UUCF can see it by clicking "Religion" and then "Unitarian Universalist Congregation of Fairfax".
Note that we generally do not want to get into private mail discussions regarding our web site, or UUCF matters. Private mail received by us related to such matters will usually be posted on our web site, and may be disseminated widely by other means. Requests to keep such mail private will not be honored.
--
Michael D. Berger
Rosalie A. Clavez
[http://www.rosemike.net/]
Subject: (no subject)
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 14:25:30 EDT
From: [Martha Johnson]
To: [UUCF Chat]
Kurt
Also please take the Johnsons off the chat list as well. I love my fellow UU's but prefer to only hear from the ones that I know and are interested in.
Thanks
Martha Johnson
PS I miss the people on the Board - but not report- writing or survey-making of meetings!
Subject: UUCF Chat
Date: Jun 22 1999 18:33:53 EDT
From: "UUCF Chat"
To: [UUCF Chat]
Chat members:
I have removed everyone who requested removal today. I have also removed Michael Berger since he is not a member of UUCF.
Kurt
Subject: Removal
Date: Jun 22 1999 19:05:25 EDT
From: Alisa Joaquin
To: [UUCF Chat]
I have seen five requests today to be removed from this list. Though I have seen the posts, and my own post regarding the Dalai Lama, I must say one more thing. I do not believe that a third chat list would solve the problem. There will always be contention when you have a diverse group of people. For many, expressing their points of view regardig the leadership, minister, or any other aspect of UUCF "life" does not come easy. Many prefer to put their thoughts in writing. Many have tried to speak directly with the people that were involved and did not get any results. Other's feel that the chat gives them the only option to express how they feel. How do you tell a member that their words are hurtful without becoming hurtful yourself?
Calling that person on the phone may be one way. Speaking to that person face to face is another. For others writing to that person directly is also another. If there are hurtful words, the best way to handle it is offline and directly with that person whichever way you choose. We must remember, that each person is entitled to their own opinion. If comparisons are made, perhaps what must be asked of that person is "what did they mean by that" rather than assuming they are making an accusation.
I do now wish to see others leave, even though I may not always agree with what they say, but what they have said has often given me food for thought. Their "voices" will be missed.
Alisa
Subject: Re: yesterday's message
Date: Jun 23 1999 08:57:08 EDT
From: [Mark Waser]
To: [UUCF Chat]
Heh. Sometimes I'm a bit slow. Recurring thoughts of my own message convince me that it's time to leave the list regardless of whether it's shut down or not. Fear is a lousy reason to stay. Of fear and hatred you must beware - for they lead to the dark side.
Actually, it reminds me of the old Bill Cosby comedy routine about tonsillitus - - "Not only have they lost the war, but they've actually gone over to the other side . . . . "
So, Kurt, if you could perform a chatlistectomy on me I'd greatly
appreciate it.
Thanks.
Mark Waser, 22 Jun 1999 is repeated here.
Subject: Re: Reviewing the Issues
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 10:37:56 EDT
From: [Maureen Mylander]
To: [Michael D. Berger & Rosalie A Clavez]
I just love (not really) the way Kurt kicked you off the list, even when you didn't ask to be omitted! But I note that most of the people who are quitting the list are the worst of the A--holes!
Hope you can keep your list going. I don't know if I'm on it or not, but would like to be.
Best regards to you and Rosemary,
Maureen Mylander
Subject: Curious- Re: Then and Now
Date: Jun 23 1999 21:43:44 EDT
From: David Heagy
To: [UUCF Chat]
After reading the recent exchanges I realized I wasn't clear on the goals. I could make some assumptions, but I'm almost always wrong. At first reading, some messages seem to contain criticism of the church, the minister, and the board. But, that's on the surface. There must be something deeper. I admit I felt hurt and angry at first. I try to spend some of my time doing volunteer work at for the congregation, so I took some of the comments personally, and it hurt. And, I do get spiritually challenged by some of the activities and services. I like getting exposed to new ideas and concepts. That's how I grow. Something's like prayer and references and to a god make me examine my beliefs. Sometimes it leads to change. I don't mind if some concepts aren't perfect for me; they may fit the needs of someone else who is on a different path.
So, back to my curiosity. What are the hopes and goals of the people who seem to be (but may not be) complaining or criticizing? What change are you seeking? Or is it something else?
Mr. Curiosity